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talkin 'bout...math and social justice

Welcome to talkin ‘bout! This discussion series brings together educators, activists and youth to participate in a public conversation about timely and important topics in liberatory education.

The second discussion in this series, talkin ‘bout…math and social justice, will focus on the question of how math education can be used to forward social justice and how social justice can be used to improve math education. This discussion is linked to the upcoming national conference, Creating Balance in an Unjust World. Creating Balance provides a unique space in which educators can come together to explore questions, challenges, and opportunities to work for social and economic justice through mathematics and math education. This conference is sponsored by Radical Math and Long Island University.

In the column to the right you will find samples of social justice math lesson plans.

Here is how talkin 'bout works: A group of panelists who have an expertise in math and social justice will answer questions posted by a moderator to our online discussion board from Wednesday, March 19 to Thursday, March 20. All visitors to the website are invited to post their own questions and comments for the panelists and for each other. Anyone can read the discussion without registering. To post, first you must register to use the site.

You can either reply to an existing comment or question by hitting "reply" or add a new comment or question by hitting "add comment." If you refer to a website in your post, please add the entire website address, including the "http://" because that will allow the address to hyperlink directly to the site.

Panelists for talkin 'bout...math and social justice are:

  • Bob Moses, Founder and President of the Algebra Project. Co-author of Radical Equations and former Civil Rights Movement organizers.
  • Jonathan Osler, who taught math at El Puente Academy for Peace & Justice for six years and is currently a math coach in Los Angeles. He is the founder of RadicalMath.org and an organizer of the Creating Balance in an Unjust World conference on math & social justice.
  • Faye Brown, who has been a member of the Baltimore Algebra Project for five years. She is a sophomore at Baltimore City Community College.
  • Patricia Buenrostro, who has taught high school mathematics for 10 years in Chicago. Currently she is pursuing a PhD at the University of Illinois at Chicago in Curriculum. Her research interests are math and social justice, community engagement in schools, and teacher professional development in mathematics reform.
  • Saara Nafici, the Projects Coordinator for the Neighborhood Economic Development Advocacy Project in New York. She provides technical support to community groups, collaborates on GIS mapping projects, engages in coalition organizing and organizes the annual Community Reinvestment Workshop Series. 
  • Tara Mack (Moderator), Director of the Education for Liberation Network.

Talkin ‘bout…math and social justice will continue from Wednesday, March 19 to Thursday, March 20, giving everyone plenty of time to contribute. We hope this will be an enlightening and lively digital conversation.

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talkin ‘bout…math and social justice

Good morning everyone. Thanks for joining us for talkin 'bout. And many thanks to our panelists for participating in this online event. I am looking forward to an energetic, rigorous and respectful discussion on this important issue.

My first question

Posted by Moderator at 2008-03-19 10:06
I would like to start by asking all the panelists (and anyone else who cares to answer) to explain what math and social justice means to them. When I was at the Creating Balance conference last year, I heard at least three different ideas about what this phrase means:

a) Low income youth and youth of color should have the same quality math
education as white middle and upper middle class youth so that they can
achieve the same successes--good test scores, access to college etc.

b) Social justice issues make math more interesting to low income youth
and youth of color because it makes math see more more relevant to their
lives

c) Math should be taught in the context of social justice so that low
income youth and youth of color can use it as a tool to achieve social
justice aims.

So which is the primary aim of math and social justice? A? B? C? None of
the above? All of the above?

Math and Social Justice

Posted by Faye Brown at 2008-03-19 10:21
I think that I would agree most with 'A'. Educational equality is a big issue in our country. Upper and middle class families are able to provide their children with better education, insuring their children will be able to get better paying jobs, thus continuing the cycle of "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer". This is a bigger problem when it comes to math because math is needed in all professions, and basically all areas of life. In lower income neighborhoods, youth aren't getting the basic math skills that they need, not only to excel in school but also to be able to provide for their families if necessary.

Radical in Ella's sense

Posted by Bob Moses at 2008-03-19 10:52
Doing voter registration from 1961 to 1964 was not radical (liberating) per se. What was radical (in Ella Baker’s sense of “getting down to and understanding the root of the matter”) was doing it for the sharecroppers, day laborers and domestic servants in the Mississippi Delta. Similarly, doing math from 1982 to the present is not radical (liberating) per se. What is radical, in Ella’s sense, is doing it with the bottom quartile of the nation’s students (plus all the students for whom the current system does not work).

Math and Social Justice

Posted by Patricia Buenrostro at 2008-03-19 11:55
My decision to teach math was a political one. For most of my teaching career I taught reform mathematics where I tried to facilitate and foster students' critical thinking and mathematical power in the NCTM sense. I worked hard and consciously to make it accessible for all students. However, with so many students disengaged in school, with so many of our students dropping out and being pushed out from public schools at alarming rates, and so many young people experiencing failure in school and in math, we must change the curriculum, we must change the way we approach schooling, and we most certainly must change the way we relate to young people.

I believe we have a responsibility to equip our young people with essential mathematical tools for understanding so that their opportunities open up beyond high school. Let's not be fooled that this alone will get them to college much less through college. There are larger forces (economic, social, and political) that stand in the way for the majority of low-income youth and youth of color to successfully engage in post-secondary options. The assumption here is that college becomes both a means and an end for the purpose of our teaching which should not be equated with liberation.

What is the purpose of mathematics education in a liberatory framework? I believe we must be able to achieve all three - a, b, and c. This is our challenge. I believe we must be able to equip students with the necessary mathematical competence and confidence to read and write their world in the Freireian sense. This includes conventional or traditional mathematics.

I'll provide one example. We could engage our students in a political discussion about test scores, how they are designed, and for what purpose. There is some good mathematics (statistics) that undergird test scores' function and by understanding the mathematics within a political frame, we at least accomplish three things: (1) we provide students with the opportunity to reframe testing as it relates or rather doesn't relate to their intelligence, (2) we provide students with the opportunity to use mathematics as a tool to challenge the status quo, and (3) we learn powerful mathematics along the way. Developing good math curriculum is difficult but certainly possible and our challenge!!

Math and Social Justice

Posted by Cindy Koons at 2008-03-19 12:28
Honestly, math and social justice are two terms that seem very independent of each other. I cannot relate them as terms easily. However, I know the point that is to be made by these terms, but I would rather think of it as a parity of math education for everyone. In so doing, there is justice in the math education provided since it is tailored for those who are being educated.

In other words, if you are teaching in the inner city, the word problems are based on knowledge to which inner city kids can relate and the subjects involved have names that the kids recognize. Likwise, if your students are all Vietnamese, the word problems would relate to their knowledge, etc.

Social justice is so vague-- as a teacher, I cannot assume this awesome responsibility but if you talk to me about teaching so that each of my students can relate to what I am saying, that I can do.

If textbooks do not provide it, then create it or supplement with other materials. I do this now with my students. I relate math to sports for the athletes; to dance for the dancers; to cell phone usage to the teens. This is the responsibility of every teacher. We must work with the curriculum, but adjust as necessary to do the best job we can.

Math and Social Justice

Posted by Saara Nafici at 2008-03-19 14:16
Social justice is an ongoing struggle that takes place both in and out of the classroom. To the extent that youth, as well as adults, have access to the skills they need for this struggle goes to the heart of the issue.

Math, much like other core subjects, can be used in a liberatory fashion to analyze and deconstruct systems of oppression, just as it can be used to model and build a more equitable and just society.

For example, a youth who understands all the fees tacked on to his credit card uses math on a personal level to avoid the kinds of high-cost credit that target youth, communities of color, and low-income communities.

On the other hand, an economist who uses math to justify structural adjustment programs in South America illustrates how math can be used on an international scale to further exploitation and poverty.

Any subject - including math - can be taught with the goal of empowerment and liberation.

Reframing the question

Posted by Moderator at 2008-03-19 13:54
Already we seem to have a variety of opinions about what math and social justice is. So let me reframe the question. Two of the essential questions that were asked as part of the curriculum for the 1964 Freedom Schools were something like (I’m paraphrasing here) “What do white people have that we want?” “What do white people have that we don’t want?” I’d like to think about math and social justice in that context. A couple of people talked about the need to provide good quality math education, similar to what white middle class students get. So let’s be more specific. What is it about the math education that white middle class students get that we want? What is it that we don’t want? To Bob’s point, is there anything to social justice and math beyond just working with poor kids and kids of color and trying to get them to do as well as white kids? Is parity with the powerful the beginning and end of social justice when it come to math education?

Math Education

Posted by Faye Brown at 2008-03-19 14:02
I think one of the big differences in math education between the white middle class and the black lower class is teachers. Poor kids deserve teachers who are qualified in their subject, passionate about teaching, and actually willing to teach. Poor kids also deserve to have up-to-date textbooks so that they can be aware of recent changes in teaching. White middle class kids also get smaller class sizes. They aren't stuck in a room with 30 or 40 other students trying to learn. Poor kids deserve that also. Poor kids deserve to have programs for special needs students so that they can also learn effectively.

Follow up question

Posted by Moderator at 2008-03-19 14:15
That makes a lot of sense, Faye. But I'm also wondering, if there anything the middle class has that the poor don't want? Anything they don't have that the poor do want? Or do the poor just want exactly what the middle class have got?

Re: Follow up question

Posted by Faye Brown at 2008-03-19 15:02
I think a lot of poor children see the middle class as spoiled. Middle class kids get allowance and get to go shopping. Their parent's buy them everything they need and a lot of what they want. By doing this, a lot of parents aren't teaching responsibility and value. In poor families, this is taught early. You have to work for what you want and you have to take care of the things you get or you may lose them. I think being "spoiled" is not something that poor kids need. Learning responsibility and value at a young age is something that helps poor kids succeed.

Re: reframing the question

Posted by Saara Nafici at 2008-03-19 14:38
I don't necessarily see math and social justice as meaning that rich/poor or black/white students have equal access to math education (quality teachers, resources, curriculum). Clearly, there is a great need for more equity in the school system. However, using math as a social justice tool means so much more.

We can look at not only how math is taught (using participatory, culturally-relevant, empowering approaches) but also at what students can use math for in their lives.

For example, we live in a two-tiered credit system wherein mainstream financial services are available for generally whiter, wealthier populations. The second tier of fringe financial services offers higher-cost and higher-risk products to generally lower-income and communities of color. Having developed math and critical thinking skills allows you to see how these systems affect you on a individual level but also across neighborhoods as wealth and equity is sapped due to the higher cost of being poor.

So I would agree that we need good teachers and more resources in under-funded schools, but that would not necessarily lead to math-for-liberation if those same teachers are not allowed to think critically about social justice issues in the classroom.

re: Reframing the Question

Posted by Jonathan Osler at 2008-03-19 14:38
I would like to take the opportunity to thank the folks who organized this online panel, and to say that I'm deeply honored to be a participant. I also want to state that I am a white, middle class man.

A quick response to the first question: While I feel that my official answer would be D (all of the above), I also want to state that am very interested not only in the ways that mathematics can be used to access college/jobs, but also in the ways it can be used to create social/economic changes. Having a mathematical analysis/framework seems critical for folks trying to make new laws and policies; mathematics can help grassroots organizers make strategic campaign decisions; mathematics can help demographers construct maps and crunch data to expose inequities to a mass audience. These are skills that I think our young people must be equipped with if they wish to fight for social 'justice'.

To the second question... There are obviously many exceptions to what I'm about to write. With that said, I feel that many of our teachers believe that our nation's poor youth of color are less smart and less capable of doing well in school, biases that are exacerbated by the rhetoric about the so-called 'achievement gap'. As a result, many teachers feel that to "correct" this problem, poor students and students of color must be taught "procedural math". On the contrary, because of teacher bias that white, middle class students are inherently smarter/better at school, these students are encouraged to "think" and "problem solve". This dynamic results in two very different, unequal learning environments.

maths and social justice in London

Posted by ben raikes at 2008-03-19 17:59
Greeting everyone. I am a primary school teacher in Hackney, London. I teach year 6, which is means 10 and 11 year olds. I have been very interested to read the discussion so far. I confess that I hadn't spent much time thinking about the direct connections between social justice and maths, other than in sense A, that poor kids need good teachers.

I had heard of Bob Moses work on the Algebra project, and I was struck by the idea that giving working class children an education in algebra, a form of abstraction, was equivalent to his work registering share croppers.
The ability to abstract, to think in code, to manipulate code, was the key skill in the computer age. I wonder if I have understood you idea correctly Bob?

In my work, I'm intrigued by what goes on in children's minds. What is the nature of their relationship with the curriculum and their teachers. This old chestnut. "Tony is a shepherd. He has 6 sheep and 9 goats. How old is he?" Have you tried it? You get answers that reflect all the different operations you can use with 6 and 9. So, 15, 54, 69, 96`(less often) etc. Very few say, "What are you talking about!"

I think this says something important about working class kids and their sense of schooling. What it means. Whether it is supposed to make sense. Would middle class children do the same? I wonder.


Is it civics or math?

Posted by Moderator at 2008-03-19 18:07
In response to the way Saara, Jonathan and Patricia are framing math and social justice, it seems like usually the disucssions and learning about social justice issues tend to take place in social studies classes or history classes or civics classes. Are there any particular challenges to marrying math and social justice? Is there time in a math classroom to deal effectively with both the math and the broader social issue? In your experience how prepared are math teachers generally to deal with issues like economic inequality or standardized testing as math problems?

Is it civics or math

Posted by ben raikes at 2008-03-19 18:27
Well I think it's possible to make all your maths teaching ABOUT social justice ie "let's look at this bar graph about per capita incomes around the world. Who earns more, the person in Holland or the person in Bangladesh?" etc. But in primary school, I'm more interested in trying to create an atmosphere where children believe that education is MEANINGFUL. That they are meaning makers. Critical thinkers. Engaged. My belief is that this is best done through good, thorough teaching in a friendly, serious atmosphere. Where children's understanding is regularly assessed and misconceptions corrected.

On the question as to whether there is anything that working class schools don't want, a friend of mine is a poet who sometimes runs workshops in schools. He says that he feels that he experiences much more resistance from middle class children who are alarmed that there is no 'success criterion' for his sessions. How can they be sure that they will get it right?

Not about Maths, but an indication that high pressure, rarefied independent schools may be 'procedural' rather than 'problem solving' in a different way..

Civics or math...

Posted by Patricia Buenrostro at 2008-03-19 19:06
There are definitely challenges to marrying math and social justice and two big challenges are teachers' own ability or lack thereof to make the connections themselves (how can/does mathematics aid in our understanding of political, social, and economics issues) and a short supply of curriculum that provides such understanding. We, without a doubt, need to engage in better and more effective teaching as a profession. I have worked with a lot of teachers across the Chicago school district and we are lacking in knowledge about good teaching and knowledge about young people. Even if we work at a systemic level to improve are practice, this alone will not keep youth in school although students will walk away with more mathematical power; those students that end up sticking through high school and several years of high school-level math. We are getting high schoolers (in many cases the majority) that don't understand percentages neither conceptually nor procedurally. This is a crime in my opinion and this is merely one dimension to the problem of ineffective mathematics teaching. So on this level, we have to be committed to understanding how to teach better. No doubt!

The problem remains that students don't see math as relevant. Why learn it? They believe they are not going to college anyway. And in reality, many don't and many won't, for many reasons beyond a poor quality mathematics education. These reasons are what I want my students to understand and I want them to be part of struggle in trying to impact these reasons. As a math educator, using math as another lens through which we can understand injustice is an underdeveloped and heretofore underseized opportunity before us. As a profession and as a community we are not prepared to address these issues in the classroom but that doesn't preclude us from trying.

re: Is it civics or math?

Posted by Jonathan Osler at 2008-03-20 03:07
There have been times in my own teaching practice where my students and I have gotten into amazing conversations about the topic that I've used to contextualize the lesson, and only later have I asked myself - "wait... but did they learn the math?" We must avoid this common pitfall, which is why when creating "social justice math" curriculum, I almost always start with a strong mathematical framework and then find a relevant topic that fits the math content. Some ways to have these conversations without sacrificing time for the math content: Plan lessons/units with the social studies teacher, have interdisciplinary math/social studies classes, have extended-time math classes, and invite students to meet during lunch to continue the conversation.

I agree with Patricia that many teachers lack ideas about how to 'marry' math and social justice. In my experience, teachers often struggle with pedagogy (HOW to teach the content), but generally understand the math content fairly well. Therefore, my sense is that a key reason why they struggle to marry math and social justice is because they don't have an expansive understanding of all the social justice issues affecting their students and communities. Thus the impetus is on us to educate ourselves about these issues - reading community newspapers and blogs, speaking with parents, attending neighborhood events, talking with students, etc.

math and social justice

Posted by David Stovall at 2008-03-19 19:12
Greetings Panelists,

I appreciate the honest answers about math and social justice. My question is a short one, but one I think about quite often. Over the years, what rationales have you used to principals, teachers, school districts, parents and students on why you teach math in the way that you do?

dave stovall

Day 2 First Question

Posted by Moderator at 2008-03-20 10:04
Welcome to Day 2 of this discussion. I would like to follow up on some of the questions/comments posted late yesterday. Ben Raikes argued that while it’s always possible to create a social justice context for any lesson, it’s more important to make sure a lesson is meaningful to a student. Ben, maybe you could tell us more about what that means. What do you think is meaningful to your students? As social justice educators are we making an assumption that social justice issues are inherently meaningful to students? How do you construct lessons that engage students in social justice in meaningful ways? Faye, maybe you could tell us about some of the most meaningful lessons you experienced as a student in the Algebra Project?

Creating demand

Posted by Sebastian Ruth at 2008-03-20 11:55
I am energized by this discussion, and appreciate the opportunity to pose a question to this group. (Kudos to Tara and the other Ed Liberation folks for this wonderful forum). I'm not a math educator; I teach music, and started Community MusicWorks, a community-based program that connects a professional string quartet with several urban low income neighborhoods. The connection, however, is very close in my mind in that music, like math, is a subject not always considered related to social justice issues.

My question to the group is that of demand. It seems to me that one of the important features of the Algebra Project is that of getting kids to understand that they can, and should demand a quality math education. Is our role as educators, as Jonathan Osler said yesterday, to not only become engaged in the social justice issues facing our students, but also to show how they have agency to demand a quality education that will help to address those issues?

re: creating demand

Posted by Jonathan Osler at 2008-03-20 15:16
There have been a number of times when I introduced a "social justice" topic in class that I incorrectly assumed my students would care about. For example, one young woman explained she was so tired of experiencing poverty, that she didn't want to talk about it in class - even if it meant talking about how to fight poverty. Over time I've figured out better ways to understand which issues my students do care and want to learn about.

In general, I've found that topic students are most interested in are those that relate very directly to their lives, and quality education is one of these issues. How does their school fare in terms of student funding? Teacher qualification? Physical environment? Testing demands? Studying these issues within a mathematical context provides opportunities for students to both learn the content and hopefully push for changes that will have an immediate impact on the quality of their life.

Baltimore Algebra Project

Posted by Faye Brown at 2008-03-20 12:33
I got involved with the project during my senior year of high school. When I first started I had no idea our education system was so messed up. My head was in the clouds. The more I got involved the more I learned. I learned that not all children get allowance from their parents and go shopping seasonal for clothes. I learned that some children feel like they can't go to school everyday because they have to do things to provide for their family. I also learned that a lot of students saw school as a waste of their time because they weren't learning anything and they could be doing other things. It hurt me to find this out, but it also opened my eyes, and I've been an advocate since.

Creating Math Lessons

Posted by Moderator at 2008-03-20 16:42
One thing I'm curious about is the extent to which, as an educator, are exploring social justice issues alongside students, and the extent to which you know the answer from the start. One of the sample lessons on the right hand column, for example, uses statistics to demonstrate that police in a certain area were using racial profiling. I realize the person who wrote that particular lesson isn't on the panel (but feel free to chime in if you're watching, Rico!) but I'm wondering in a situation like that, for example, would you know in advance that the statistics would reveal a pattern of racial profiling? Or if students said they were interested in racial profiling, would you simply look for statistics related to that topic and then analyze them alongside the students to see what was revealed? What if the statistics showed that there was no racial profiling? Would you look for other statistics?

Responding the question about math lessons where we "know" the outcome

Posted by Eric (Rico) Gutstein at 2008-03-20 16:55
Hello. The racial profiling project, for those unfamiliar, is one in which students use mathematics to analyze data in which people of color were disproportionately stopped by police in so-called random situations. We use real data, from an ACLU lawsuit.

To respond to the question--first, I think it's ok that we "know" the answer and students don't (initially). For one, in our context (Chicago public schools), most students have knowledge or experience of racial profiling and other forms of discrimination. So in that sense, we are building on that which they already know. No, in general they do not know the specifics of the data, but they have the life experiences.

Second, there are multiple purposes to projects such as these, but one (big) purpose is that they serve as entry points into deeper discussions about social reality. The key question, politically, from this project, is whether racism is a factor in the disproportionate data. Some will argue that, for example, it's just good police practices, etc. And to answer that question, you hit upon the fact that the data analysis is insufficient to answer the question. So one question leads to another, and you begin (or continue) the processes of trying to read the world, understanding along the way, that it's complex, contradictory, and that mathematics is ONE of the analytical tools we need to do this (and to, of course, then change it).

knowing the answer in advance

Posted by Jonathan Osler at 2008-03-20 21:57
There are some math topics that allow for more open-ended questions. For example, when I taught about correlation and regression, students were able to compare any two data sets sorted by Zip Codes in Brooklyn, NY. Some pairings indicated a strong relationship between the data, others indicated a weak relationship. Some pairings made absolutely no sense to compare in the first place. All of these made for interesting conversations.

As Rico discussed, some topics work well for problems with more defined answers that students are working towards, and still other topics fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. For example, in the "Funding an Education" unit I developed, students had to choose one combination for per-pupil spending at their imaginary schools out of several combinations that were mathematically correct. They then had to make an argument for which combination the schools should choose based on which produced the fairest possible outcome.

Tying Social Justice to YPP Games

Posted by Brett Cunningham II at 2008-03-20 16:53
Besides the fact that prime numbers show up on the ACT and SAT test. In addition, those scores have a determining factoring in your progression onto college...How do games like Prime Hunt and Factor Game Board tie in with Social Justice?

Re: Tying Social Justice to YPP Games

Posted by Patricia Buenrostro at 2008-03-20 18:43
I think that Prime Hunt and Factor Game Board, or activities like those, tie into Social Justice just as is stated; they offer up opportunities to learn or practice knowledge that is summoned by the ACT and SAT test. Although the test is one factor in college access, I disagree with the idea that the test will determine college access in an absolute sense.

This really gets at a big contention in math and social justice which is which should be forefronted, math or social justice, and are we sacrificing one while emphasizing the other. I too have struggled with this notion. Developing good curriculum is difficult - I will say again but in reality a lot of the curriculum, if not most, is not good anyway. Why are students taught percentages every year from 5th grade to 9th grade and they still don't get it? Perhaps, doing it the same way year after year doesn't make sense. Wasn't it albert einstein that said 'insanity is doing the same thing but expecting a different outcome'? My point here being that we need to understand better how to teach concepts effectively and make it relevant. Relevance cannot be conflated with social justice but while we are trying to find better curriculum why not bring in topics that students care about? Doing so will inherently be more relevant and related to their experiences and with marginalized youth will more than likely be directly tied to social issues.

Drawing Dsicussion to a Close

Posted by Moderator at 2008-03-20 21:52
Thank you very much for this wonderful discussion. I am now declaring that talkin 'bout...math and social justice has officially come to an end. However, that does not mean that people can no longer post. This discussion board will remain here until at least next week sometime, so both panelists and participants are more than welcome to continue the conversation. What it means is that the panelists are officially released from their duties as panelists. Many thanks to Jonathan, Faye, Bob, Patrica and Saara for sharing their ideas and insights with us. And thanks to all those who participated.

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